Recently I posted my Statement of Faith which caught the interest of a few who disagreed with my statement of the trinity saying that Jesus wasn't both God and man, just man. This isn't new statement at all, in fact it is a argument that is almost as old as the belief in the trinity it self. The reason for this, as far as I see it, is because the trinity is one of the hardest doctrines to believe, not so much because of God the father or God the Holy Spirit but because of the statement that Jesus is not just 50% God and 50% man but 100% God and 100% man.I will primarily be responding to a post made on Adoni Messiah because it seemed to give a good explanations and give a point by point argument. The first point that I see in the post is "that both Oneness and trinity doctrines try to make Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah our Lord, into Almighty GOD!! And both doctrines state that you must believe that the Lord Jesus is Almighty GOD to be saved!!". On this point I have no problem, in fact if someone were to say that someone did have to have a full understanding of the trinity to become a Christian I would argue against them, the reason for this is because many people don't have a full understanding of the trinity when they are saved. In fact the only major saving elements is that Jesus was perfect, died for are sins, and was raised three days latter (give or take depending on your view of a day), those three elements satisfy the sacrifice system set up in the old testament for our sins.
Second "Both doctrines appeared hundreds of years after the ascension of Christ." This is also true, the formal doctrine of the trinity wasn't written down and worked out until The Nicene Creed (325-381 AD). The reason for this is there really wasn't a reason for it to be written down until then, There was a small contingent of people who would say that Jesus was just a man from the time that He set foot on earth but after His ascension among believers that group shrank a lot. The reason for this is that Christians adopted many of the views that the Jews had on God, you see the doctrine of the trinity in Christianity may have been defined years after Christ but it was actually a well established doctrine in by the time of Christ (you will notice that in the Gospels this is one of the few things that Jesus didn't have to teach, because it was already widely held before He came).
Third, this is where we really start to get in to the meat of the theology, and where it starts to get interesting/ fun "But the original faith which was once delivered unto the saints [Jude 3] did not suffer from this problem. The original faith has always been that there is solely ONE GOD, the Father. And Jesus of Nazareth, is the one man, the one human being whom Almighty GOD raised from the dead, made him, both Lord and Christ, and exalted him to His right hand. Hence, Jesus of Nazareth is the Lord Jesus Christ, a man approved of Almighty GOD, who is currently at the right of the ONE GOD in the heavens. Whom we await for his return. (1 Cor 8:4) ... there is none other God but one. (1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
For this one we have to start by looking at the full context of the verse 1 Corinthians 8
Take Care with Your Liberty
1 Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies 2 If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know; 3 but if anyone loves God, he is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. 7 However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
In regards to verse 4 it becomes clear that it is taken out of context, this verse is speaking about idols and saying that there is only one God, it is not speaking about the Godhead and does nothing to either support or reject the idea of the trinity. Verse 6 on the other hand does seem to be making an attempt at separating God the Father and God the Son, that is until you start to dig into the Greek of the words Lord in Lord, Jesus Christ means Lord of Lords which is a name used for God. Not only that looking at this verse we realize that this is speaking of roles with in that Godhead, in other words we exist for the Father and we exist through the Son.
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Th 1:9-10) For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. Here, in 1 Timothy 2:5, you have one of the few verses in the Bible where the doctrine of the trinity could be in conflict, that is until you read it in light of 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10. In 1 Timothy there is no denying what is being said it is clear that the author is speaking about God and His Son, there is a clear separation here, as well as in 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 we can see the same separation made and if we were to take these three verses by themselves never looking at what is said around them the conclusion would be that there would be two separate entities (in this case one God and His Son Jesus). But when we pull out from the verse just a little and look at 1 Thessalonians 1 in its whole we can see a different story being painted
1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. 2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, 4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; 5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. 6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit, 7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. 8 For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything. 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
Starting in verse 3 we can see Jesus motioned as Lord Jesus Christ, this is the same word translated Lord of Lords earlier. Again later in verses 5 and 6 the Holy Spirit is mentioned as another person yet equal here. with these verses it quickly becomes clear that this verse is talking about the trinity and what it is doing is giving a little outline of what the roles in the trinity are. When we go back to 1 Timothy 2:5 with this new realization the same thing can be seen there, this is speaking to the roles of God the Son and God the Father.
Hundreds of years after the pure, true, apostolic faith was propagated; Greek, Hellenistic and pagan philosophy/doctrines changed the human Jesus into a demigod then into a godman. And in response, both the doctrines of the trinity and Oneness tried to solve this self-inflicted problem! The solution then, is to return to the pure faith and doctrine as taught in the Scriptures: that there is solely ONE GOD, the Father. And there is solely one man, one human, whom the ONE GOD has made "Lord of all", the man Messiah Jesus. There are several problems with this statement. First as I said before the pure and true Apostolic faith would have said that there was a trinity because they would have taken the basic belief from the Jewish doctrine and the only real difference is that in the new Christian belief there would have been a greater understanding of the roles of the three persons of the trinity. Second this statement assumes that because this doctrine wasn't written out until a few centuries after the death of Jesus it must be false and made up but the simple fact is that in the history of God's people is has been that way. We can look back at the early and see that there were hundreds of years between God making a covenant with Abraham and the Ten Commandments, same with when Israel came to possess the their land and the time that an actual kingdom was set up. This is a weak argument to begin with and it only gets weaker as you examine it in greater detail. My third problem with this comment is that it seems to think that there is a problem to begin with that we need to solve. I will admit that we can't really know everything about the trinity and how it works but at the same time I will also say that we don't need to know everything about the trinity and how it works. In fact to try to get rid of it creates more problems and questions, from why are three persons mentioned in the Bible to if Jesus was just a man then what was so special about him. Unless we are ready to say that the bible is in direct conflict with itself we can't really believe this statement of One God.
And indeed the day is coming where ... (Phil 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Again as in the start of this there is nothing that I can disagree with, there will be a day that God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) sits in all his glory and we praise Him.
If there are any questions and/or comments please feel free to post them, I love talking about stuff like this and I will be sure to respond to any questions.
11 comments:
Great post PJ.
The same bloke commented on my blog site regarding a post I made on the Trinity.
I can't say I'm all that impressed with his spamming type interaction.
You have said basically what I was going to post so I'm going to link to your post instead.
You made some good observations about not having to understand the Trinity to be saved, but we do have to know that Christ is God.
I would also add to it what John says in his Epistle; to test the spirits if they declare that God himself came in the flesh and if they don't they are of the antichrist.
Blessings craig
Hi PJ.
1Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God
2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Thanks for getting back with the verses.
Greetings PJ
1) You said:
"the formal doctrine of the trinity wasn't written down and worked out until The Nicene Creed (325-381 AD). The reason for this is there really wasn't a reason for it to be written down until then, There was a small contingent of people who would say that Jesus was just a man from the time that He set foot on earth but after His ascension among believers that group shrank a lot. The reason for this is that Christians adopted many of the views that the Jews had on God, you see the doctrine of the trinity in Christianity may have been defined years after Christ but it was actually a well established doctrine in by the time of Christ (you will notice that in the Gospels this is one of the few things that Jesus didn't have to teach, because it was already widely held before He came)."
Now I have heard of making an argument from silence; but you are really stretching it with your statement.
The trinity was widely held before Christ came!! It was a well established doctrine by the time of Christ!!
How can you make such statements? Where is your proof?
And what do you based your history on when you say that those who believed that Jesus was a man, were a small contingent of people, who shrank a lot! What is your source? Please state your source.
Now, what can easily be seen and ascertained was indeed established by the time of Christ is:
the doctrine that there is solely ONE GOD, the Father.
And that there is no other GOD but He!!
That was indeed established and widely held before Christ came!
GOD through Moses set out the monotheistic statement of faith, the Shema, in Deut 6.4ff.
The man Messiah Jesus of Nazareth confirmed this creed in Mark 12:28ff; both he and the scribe were not trinitarian:
(Mark 12:32) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
To this very day, Jews hold on to the monotheistic understanding of Deut 6.4ff.
The Shema is not a trinitarian statement. Never has been.
It was understood to mean that there is solely ONE Being, ONE Person, who is Almighty GOD; and there is no other GOD but He.
Jesus identified the ONE GOD has the only true GOD [John 17.3] as well as calling Him, "Father".
Note also Jesus said:
(John 8:54) Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
The Jews from before the time of Christ and right up to the time of Christ, know of solely ONE GOD, that is, they know of solely ONE Being, ONE Person, who is Almighty GOD.
The Father!
This was and is the basis of true, scriptural Christianity.
Nothing had changed in this regard when identifying who GOD is and how many Persons, GOD is.
There was and still is, solely ONE Being, ONE Person, who is Almighty GOD;
viz. the Father.
What had changed however was the fact that the Messiah had come.
(Which of course the majority of the Jews have not received.)
Who therefore was the Messiah?
(1 Cor 15:21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
That man was Jesus of Nazareth. He was obedient even to the death of the cross, he died for our sins.
Thus, the ONE GOD, the Father, raised him from the dead, glorified him, set him at His own right hand, and made him,
both Lord & Christ/Messiah.
That is what new! That is what changed!
The ONE GOD, however, remains the same.
But now we have a man at the ONE GOD's right hand; this right-hand man is both Lord and Christ, hence:
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, ...
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, ...
2) You said concerning 1 Cor 8.4,6:
"In regards to verse 4 it becomes clear that it is taken out of context, this verse is speaking about idols and saying that there is only one God, it is not speaking about the Godhead and does nothing to either support or reject the idea of the trinity."
Huh! There is a difference between God and Godhead in this context? How so?
Yes, Paul is speaking in regards to idols. Therefore, he needs to identify to these former idolaters who the one, true GOD is!
Now in regards to trinitarian dogma, aren't all 3 persons supposedly Almighty GOD?
Aren't all 3 co-equally Almighty GOD? And according to you, isn't this doctrine supposedly established by the time of Christ?
Therefore, why did Paul not say,
But to us there is but one God, the Father,Son & Holy Spirit??
or something similar; to these inquiring believers??
Because neither Paul nor Jesus his Master, ever held such a belief!
All these former idolaters, now turned Christians, needed to know,
that to us, the early, apostolic, Christian church:
there is but one God, the Father. That's it!! Amen, Nothing has changed to who GOD is.
(Godhead is based on the old English word, Godhood; meaning, deity; what makes one, Almighty GOD? So 1 Cor 8.6 has everything to do with Godhead in this regards.
If someone else besides the Father possessed Godhood; this would mean therefore, that that someone was also Almighty GOD; and Paul in the context of 1 Cor Chap. 8, would have had to identify this other, unknown person!)
Both Jewish and Gentile Christians of the early church identified ONE Being, ONE Person, as GOD.
Namely, the Father.
Just like Jesus did in John 17.3.
Now as for "Lord".
Come now?
Is Philip, Almighty GOD or "Lord of lords"? [John 12.21]
Is Pilate, Almighty GOD or "Lord of lords"? [Matt 27.63]
Is Abraham, Almighty GOD or "Lord of lords"? [1 Pet 3.6]
I know these are 3 silly questions. I am simply making a point. That is, the Greek word for "lord", kurios; has various meanings depending on the context. Therefore, just because someone is called kurios, it does not make them Almighty GOD. (As shown in the 3 verses above).
kurios is not just used in the Greek NT for the name of GOD, YHWH.
It is also used for its predominant meaning i.e. to denote someone as a "lord"; as well as meaning "sir" and "master".
So what is the context in regards to Jesus?
(Acts 2:34-36) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The Lord [YHWH] said unto my Lord [Heb. adoni],
Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 110.1 is the most quoted OT verse in the NT. It identifies Christ's lordship.
YAHWEH GOD ALMIGHTY spoke prophetically thru David, of the time, when He was going to invite David's lord, David's adoni;
(as well as our Lord/adoni Phil 2.9-11)
to sit at His right hand.
Those who know the Jewish language understand that the Hebrew word, adoni; is solely used in ref. to human lords, and occasionally, angelic lords.
It is never ever used in ref. to Almighty GOD. And this fact is consistent in all of the 195 occurrences of adoni in the OT.
Thus, OT readers of Biblical times, understood that the Messiah would be a human lord, a human being, who would one day be at Almighty GOD's right hand.
In Mark 12:35ff, after Jesus identified the ONE LORD GOD in verses 28ff;
Jesus identifies himself as that lord, the "my lord" of Psa 110.1, David's lord;
who would one day be at YHWH GOD's right hand.
Peter therefore on the Day of Pentecost, after stating how the Jews had the man Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of Almighty GOD;
handed over to be crucified and killed; this man was subsequently raised by GOD Almighty and GOD set him at His right hand, and made him Lord and Christ.
Thus, Peter informs the crowd that, the man Jesus of Nazareth is the "[my] lord" spoken of in Psalm 110.1;
hence he is the Lord Messiah.
[Col 3.24, Luke 2.11, Acts 2.36]
Now, the very fact that GOD made him so should be a clear indicator that Jesus is not himself Almighty GOD; for he did not possess lordship inherently; rather GOD Almighty made him so!
(No one can make GOD Almighty, 'Lord'!! He is Adonai, the Lord GOD.
By definition, seeing that GOD is Almighty GOD, He is LORD over everything & everyone.
Thus, 1 Cor 15.27 He is excepted)
Therefore, Jesus is Lord of all [Acts 10.36],
Jesus is indeed "Lord of lords";
because GOD Almighty has made him so!!
He is above all, and Lord over all, second only to GOD Almighty, the Father!
[1 Cor 15.27]
Jesus even now, has a GOD above him.
[e.g. John 20.17, Rev 3.12, Heb 1.9]
The Father is and will always be Jesus' GOD.
Thus, the Lord Jesus, is not the LORD GOD. Rather, he is the Lord Messiah.
3) Conc. 1 Thess. 1
Using your reasoning I could argue that "power" is another person in 1 Thess 1.5.
Hint: PJ, stop reading personhood into the phrase, "holy spirit."
The holy spirit is simply the spirit of "God in Christ in the church"
In the OT, it simply was the spirit of the ONE GOD.
It is not another person.
It is simply GOD's spirit, His means of interacting in the church. It is GOD's (and now also Christ's) operational presence.
[John 14.23]
Also, PJ, I notice you keep speaking of "God the Son". There is no mention of such a phrase in Scripture, and neither of "God the Holy Spirit!"
4) PJ, as for your last paragraph ...
The onus is on you to prove why my point is so weak as you state.
Because, you need to prove that the trinity was somehow part of the basic belief of Jewish doctrine.
Please state your source.
For as far I can tell, the Hebrew Bible (the OT) does not contain in any shape the doctrine of the trinity, e.g. Is the Trinity in the Old Testament?
Now you rightly point out ...
"My third problem with this comment is that it seems to think that there is a problem to begin with that we need to solve."
That's the point.
From the time of Christ and of the Apostles, there was no problem!
The creed was 1 Cor 8.6, 1 Tim 2.5.
That is, ONE GOD, the Father.
And one man, Jesus of Nazareth,
who is both Lord and Christ, and who is the one mediator between the ONE GOD and mankind!
ONE GOD,
ONE man.
ONE GOD, the LORD GOD, namely, the Father.
ONE man, namely Messiah Jesus the Lord.
Nice and simple.
Sadly, not longer after the death of the apostles, Hellenism and paganism created a problem, an immense problem.
'They made the man Jesus, the Jewish Messiah,
into "Their GOD" alongside the Father.'
As one person puts it, it was orthodox Christianity's "Self-Inflicted Wound!"
It was indeed a manmade problem:
If Jesus the Son therefore is GOD Almighty and the Father is GOD Almighty, how can there be ONE GOD?
How can Jesus, be both GOD and man, at the same time? etc etc.
The Nicene creed, the church councils, trinitarian dogma, etc; were attempts to "solve this problem!"
However, this "problem" never existed with Christ and his Apostles.
It never existed in the early church.
And there are plenty of books and sources that can verify these historical events; and how "This Problem" came about.
In fact, many people after tracing the history of the church, have abandoned the doctrine of the trinity after realizing that this doctrine was indeed manmade, and that the early church was never trinitarian but rather unitarian! (ONE GOD believing)
(Don't confuse my usage of the term unitarian with the UUs)
The trinity doesn't work. It has never worked. It is manmade, and back in its early history, it was enforced by the edge of the sword, imperial decrees, intimidation and coercion.
I beseech PJ, look into what I am saying.
For starters at least, please view the video at
The Human Jesus;
be Berean about it. See what it has to say and then investigate to see if these things are indeed so.
Then prayerfully you will embrace the pure and simple, apostolic faith of solely ONE GOD, the Father; and the ONE Lord, who is GOD's Son, Jesus the Messiah; and look forward to their Coming Kingdom, which Christ will establish at his return.
May GOD bless your every endeavor in this quest for truth.
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
The Human Jesus
We agree with you Adam that there is only one God. We are not saying that there are 3 Gods which I think you are guilty of straw manning us as saying.
Why do you think Jesus allowed himself to be worshiped?
The Scriptures clearly say that the Holy Spirit is God, that Jesus is God and that the Father is God. Yet Scripture also clearly says that God is one. Therefore we have the conundrum of the Trinity.
Peter says in Acts to Ananias and Saphire that they lied to God and then said that she lied to the Holy Spirit. Here the Apostle said that both the Holy Spirit is God.
Scripture also says that all things were made through Christ... that means He was there in the beginning before any thing was made...that by default also means that He was not made.
PJ, Craig, watch the video;
then let's talk.
The Human Jesus
PJ...maybe this guy is a follower of Armstrong's belief system on the Trinity. Unle Bill was talking about this last night - it sounded spot on to what this guys is saying. Talk to dad about it and he will have some more info for you.
BTW - I'm really proud of you for standing up and stating your beliefs, you are doing an amazing job (even if the Momma bear in me still wants to come out - in this case...I don't even need to!). Mom
If you couldn't tell that last comment was from my mom.
FYI,
I am not a follower of Armstrongism.
Armstrong & Co are binitarians.
I am a ONE GOD believer, a biblical unitarian.
Please view the video for more info.
Hi Adam.
I think its a bit much for you to expect us to watch a video for an hour so that we can engage with your belief system when it is you who is questioning our Scriptural belief of the Trinity.
How about you summarize the video's points one by one and we can engage with what Scripture says about them.
I'm glad that you say you are a one God believer, so do we, I totally agree and I'm positive PJ does as well that there is only one God.
BTW do you believe you have a spirit, mind and a body? I'm sure that your spirit is totally you, that your mind is totally you and your body is totally you - yet I'm sure we will all agree there is only one of you?
If you are trinitarian in nature, what is the problem of believing God also is Trinitarian when Scripture clearly says He is?
Ok so it took me a while to respond to the comment that was left by Adam Pastor. but now I have posted my follow up at this address.
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