I have noticed a trend recently, it seems like it is intriguing more and more people to try to prove that God doesn't exist. To some this isn't a huge surprise and for me it isn't a surprise that there are people who want to kill God but it is surprising to me about how many people there are right now. In a society that is in a transition to a postmodern world view, which is world view that is partly informed by the idea of God, it seems like there should be less people trying to prove that there isn't a God, instead it appears that the opposite is true. In the past week I have been pointed to sites like How Hubble Killed God, and for videos about how God never really existed and is made up. Now I am not going to make the argument that because you are thinking about God it would naturally follow that He exists, but I do have to wonder why is it that this idea is so pervasive in your culture today?
Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Let's Kill God
I have noticed a trend recently, it seems like it is intriguing more and more people to try to prove that God doesn't exist. To some this isn't a huge surprise and for me it isn't a surprise that there are people who want to kill God but it is surprising to me about how many people there are right now. In a society that is in a transition to a postmodern world view, which is world view that is partly informed by the idea of God, it seems like there should be less people trying to prove that there isn't a God, instead it appears that the opposite is true. In the past week I have been pointed to sites like How Hubble Killed God, and for videos about how God never really existed and is made up. Now I am not going to make the argument that because you are thinking about God it would naturally follow that He exists, but I do have to wonder why is it that this idea is so pervasive in your culture today?
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Hi PJ, you ask why people are trying to disprove the concept of God so much these days? It's because the resurgence in religious thinking (through the brainwashing of children who have no opportunity to make up their own minds) is causing a clash of faiths. Christians vs Muslims vs Jews fighting over what?
You need to read this:
http://paralleldivergence.com/2007/04/28/creation-museum-madness/
and this:
http://paralleldivergence.com/2006/11/04/which-is-stronger-manfluence-or-godfluence/
To understand why "thinkers" are trying to balance up the ledger.
This is an interesting subject but it is really a different subject all together. People from one religion don't try to disprove God completely because they teach their children what they believe. Not only that it really wouldn't make any sense for anyone to argue that because a person tries to raise their children in, what the perceive to be, the truth that God isn't real.
Like I said it is an interesting subject and worth a look (in fact it is probably something that I will post on later) but I don't see how it is relevant. Stu if you want to explain your connection a little better for me that would be great.
Hey PJ. The connection I was trying to convey was that atheists/humanists are "fighting back" because for too long they've sat back and watched as innocent children are force-fed stories about Jesus, Mohammed, Heaven, Hell, Angels, The Devil, God, Rituals and Prayers. The point of the articles I posted is that not ALL religions can be right. And who is to know if you've chosen the right one? Who's to know if ANY are right - there's no proof to back any of them up - just an enormous number of blind faith followers. Just as Christians teach their children there is a God and they must pray or they'll wind up in Hell, we try to explain the reasons why these things are not so. Dawkins' "The God Delusion" was a best seller because it clearly and rationally spoke out against generations of misinformation.
If there was a God and religion was good, why would He not show Himself to individuals so they can make up their own minds, rather than preachers - who are men - spreading the Word using their threats and brainwashing techniques?
Ok I can see where you are coming from, however you are making to assumptions that, as far as my experiences go, you can't back up.
First that religious people "force feed" their children and make them believe what they do. On this I will admit that some do, but not all, in fact the great majority don't. While I was growing up my parents told me about Jesus but I was the one who chose to follow Him, I was never made to by my parents or anyone in my church. At the same time I have friends that chose not to follow Jesus and we haven't shunned them. In order for the assumption that we force our children to do anything there would have to be consequences to their choosing differently then we do.
The second assumption is that because you aren't convinced the the Bible is true, I am not convinced that the Bible is true. There is a lot of evidence to prove God but I will admit that there isn't anything that is a smoking gun, at the same time there is evidence that there isn't a God and again there is no smoking gun. Ultimately it comes down to a step of faith based on your experiences, now based on my experiences I am convinced that the Bible is true, Jesus lived a sinless life, died on a cross for my sins. If someone wants to tall me that I can't know that God is there for sure then I will quickly come back with the fact that they can't know that He isn't there for sure.
Now when I have children I will teach them what I know to be true, I would be a irresponsible father if I didn't. I will also teach them about what others believe, again I would be an irresponsible father if I didn't, and at the end of it I am confident that my children will chose to believe that what the Bible says to be true is. I will do this like my father did with me, like his father with him, and his father with him. This is how society has worked for thousands of years, parents teaching their children and then those children teaching their children, someone would be hard-pressed to convince me that this is brainwashing.
Have you watched "Jesus Camp", PJ? Have you been to the Creation Museum? Have you heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? Have you seen images of young children in Madrasahs in Pakistan? Or heard about muslim girls who are murdered for refusing to marry a specific husband? What about the 400+ children taken from Texas polygamist ranch of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Or Catholic children being raped by Priests in the U.S.?
Nobody's saying you're a bad father PJ, but what if your chosen religion is wrong? How can you truly believe it's right when more than half of the planet believes something different to you? Can you accept that it is possible you are teaching your children falsehoods?
Thanks for the discussion.
In answer to your first questions I have heard about all of your references http://pjdamws.blogspot.com/2007/02/life-focus.html
http://pjdamws.blogspot.com/2008/04/late-to-rant.html
and if you study religion one of the first things that you would notice is that these are not the rule (at least here in the west), these are just the ones that you have heard of because they make the news. You won't hear about the church down the street that is trying to reach out to the community by doing picnics because, unless you are at the picnic you don't really care. You applying the actions of a few to the whole, and that wouldn't fly under any other circumstances.
On your second question to can I accept that it is possible for what I teach to be wrong? I have struggled with my faith many times in my life, I am sure that will many more times in my life, every time I come fully convinced that God is real and He calls us to follow His ways. Now since I know that what I believe is true the answer to your question is no I can't accept that what I teach is wrong, just like I can't accept that gravity is wrong or 2+2=4 is wrong. I know this because I can see God in my life as real as I can see gravity, and I am sorry if you can't, or won't, see God in your life in the same way.
I understand that someone can look at the same information as I have and come back with a different standings and I respect that, I think where the problem here is comeing in is that you don't think that someone who is a ratinal, logical, thinking human being can look at the same information as you and come up with a different idea then you. My question, back to, then would be why is that? Is it possible for you to consider that you are wrong (and understand that I ask this knowing full well that you can and probably will come back and give me the same answer that I gave you)?
Fair enough PJ, I agree we hear more about the negative aspects of religion than the positive and they may be in the minority, but it doesn't mean they can't be dismissed. Sensible-thinking followers should be loudly and clearly denouncing Westboro, Jesus Camp and the Creation Museum for denigrating the good name of their religion - but they don't! Just like Muslims don't loudly decry against Jihadists. Deep down, they'd rather follow Bin laden than Bush.
Islam is the second-ranked religion in the world, but it's the fastest growing. Why? Not because people are converting, but because they are breeding at more than twice the rate of Christians and as I said before, their religion is force-fed to their young. In less than 50 years, Islam will surpass Christianity as the most followed religion. Then which religion will be "right"?
I applaud your two articles you posted, but they don't go far enough. If you want to fight for your religion, don't fight atheists, fight the fundies within.
Personally, I've studied up on all religions and come to the conclusion that they are man-made in an effort to control people. In today's technological society, more knowledge can be gained in a month by an individual than could be gained in the 19th century in a lifetime. And we are basing our beliefs on events that occurred 2000 years ago?
I urge you to read more outside your chosen area/comfort zone.
Thanks again.
So then let me ask you this, can you really tell me that when you have kids (if you don't already) you aren't going to tell them what you believe? Because that is what you are arguing for, allowing your children to believe in something, that you think, is untrue. If someone teaches their kid right from wrong if they don't agree with the way that you would teach it then it is simply wrong.
I have older teenage kids and when I was asked the "difficult" questions about life, I told them what I believe and why and what others believe and why and then pointed them to resources they can use to help them make up their own minds, just like I did. My parents raised me in religion, with religious beliefs, but as I grew, I could not reconcile those beliefs with the evidence I witnessed around me. In the end, I made up my own mind - I didn't have it made up for me.
Most of the people that I know from any religion would have similar experience, I was raised in a Christian family, told about Jesus and many other religions, and I made a conscious discussion to follow God. For the most part my friends (the ones that grew up in a Christian family) have a similar story to that. Minus a few secs of Christianity (at least here is the west) you would hear the same story from anyone who would describe themselves as a follower of Jesus. So what I am getting from your comments is that if someone comes from a Christian family and then they become a Christian themselves then they are being brainwashed, no matter the process by which they come to Christ through.
I'm not saying that at all PJ. What are your REAL thoughts on "Jesus Camp" and the "Creation Museum"? For example, do you agree that the Earth is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and man lived together and dinosaurs died out because of Noah's global flood? If you don't believe these things, then isn't this "museum" which is targeting children spreading lies? Is this not brainwashing? We have a $25 million museum in Kentucky that is getting thousands of visitors, many of them homeschooled. Is that not brainwashing? Jesus Camp... enough said.
Why do right-thinking Christians NOT globally and emphatically denounce these actions? Where were the Christian picketers at the opening of the museum?
You don't denounce them because unlike atheists, at least they love Jesus - nevermind that they terrorize their children. Why do you block this side of your religion out from your mind?
Ok I am a Theistic Evolutionist so no I personally don't believe in everything that the Creation Museum. It is one theory in many, and will remind you that Evolution has never scientifically been proven so it is still a theory. So in an effort to give people more knowledge so that they can make a better informed decision I am fine with the Creation Museum, I would hope that they open it up to other theories besides young earth. Ultimately if you want to label the Creation Museum as an institution used for brainwashing then you have to label every museum that doesn't give all major creation theory equal space a brainwashing institution as well. As far as Jesus Camp goes you can read my thoughts at http://pjdamws.blogspot.com/2007/02/life-focus.html, my thoughts on the movie have evolved some but not much from the time that I originally posted.
Now in your own comment you said:
"...If you don't believe these things, then isn't this "museum" which is targeting children spreading lies? Is this not brainwashing?..."
So by your own comment you are saying that the way in which you determine if someone is brainwashing or is being brainwashed is simply whether or not you agree with what is being taught. That isn't brainwashing that's a disagreement, the definition of Brainwashing is:
"Brainwashing consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person — unwelcome beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge."
Stu,
PJ probably hates when I post - but I do anyway. Just to let you know a little back ground - PJ was homeschooled - but not brainwashed. While I grew up being taught that the earth ideed was 6000 years old, etc. I did not teach PJ that. Nor do I believe that now. PJ's dad is an extremely intellegent and scientific man who believes in intelligent design and adaptation (the reality is his - as much as the scientists cannot prove creation, there is also no hard facts to prove the process of evolution - we would see it happening today). We (PJ's parents) are right leaning Christians with open minds. We do not stand and applaud other right christians who open museums and such lie this becauses we don't always agree with that and we tend to believe that it creates more division between those who believe in Christ and those who don't.
The other thing to think about - by lumping all Christians together as you have done, you have created a scenario wherein you, as an atheist/humanist can be blamed of doing just what it is you are blaming the Christians of doing 'brainwashing'. Should you tell your children that all Christians are like this, that is like Christian saying all atheists are wrong in all ways.
At any rate - all of that to say that PJ was raised in a very scientific based home with many disscussions on what as right/wrong and up for interpretation. but, he was not brainwashed (even though you apparently believe that homeschoolers brainwash thier kiddos)
Hi PJ. Would you agree that the definition of a museum is "a depository for collecting and displaying objects having scientific or historical or artistic value"? The Creation Museum does not bill itself as a place of "Art". It is promoted as being scientific. Science is based on evidence. There is no evidence whatsoever that dinosaurs and man ever lived together. They are using "any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person". Did you see the Ken Ham video linked in my Museum post? Did you hear how he talks to children? I am not saying ALL religious parents brainwash their children. I am saying many do. Are Ken Ham's video and Jesus Camp not evidence of this?
Hi Stacy. I'm glad you came in to clear the air. Firstly, I have nothing against homeschooling or the homeschooled. With the state of many schools, there are powerful arguments for it where parents can provide a better education, and I can tell from PJ's writings and his blog that you've done well. I'm sorry if you took offence at my statement about homeschoolers taking excursions to the Creation Museum, but a video I watched showed me this was the case, with Ken Ham and his "Answers in Genesis" organization actively targetting this market of customers. For what reason? Maybe you can tell me.
As for "we would see evolution happening today" (if it were real), yes, if we had our mindset locked into a 6,000 year-old universe, we'd expect to "see" evolution. But I'm talking 14 BILLION years. If you want evidence of evolution and you're seriously interested in reading up on it and watching a few videos, go here: http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm
My original article that PJ referred to in his blog post does not lump all Christians together, it focusses on Young Earth Creationists (as the Museum article does).
Yes, I personally have come to the conclusion that there is no God, no Heaven, no Hell, no Angels. But that doesn't make me a bad person without morals which many Christians believe of atheists. Instead of praying to and worshipping an invisible entity because I might get everlasting reward instead of being perpetually punished (which is a pretty selfish reason in reality, borne from bribery and threats), I do good because I know the 70 or 80 years (if I'm lucky) that I'll have on this Earth is my one and only shot. If my legacy to this Earth and my children is that I made a difference, then that's all the reward I want. As for promises of clouds, immortality and in one religion's case, 72 virgins - it's thanks, but no thanks.
May peace be with you and your family PJ.
I would agree with the Princeton definition of what a museum is how ever I think that the International Council of Museums definition is more robust
"Permanent institution in the service of society and of its development, open to the public, which acquires, conserves, researches, communicates and exhibits the tangible and intangible heritage of humanity and its environment, for the purposes of education, study, and enjoyment"
By the ICOM's definition the Creation Museum, whether you agree with what they are teaching or not, is in fact a museum. It is true that there is no evidence that says that dinosaurs lived with humans there is evidence showing that the earth could be relatively young. Just to make it clear I will say this again, I personally do not hold this view point, but just because I disagree with it doesn't mean that I can ignore the evidence just because I don't want to. From all of your comments you have done nothing to distinguish the Creation Museum from other museums, at least not without ignoring major flaws in the argument that you are using.
As far as why are they marketing towards children, specifically home schoolers. I don't know if you were ever home schooled or home schooled your children but this is the main market for just about any museum. So again it would logically follow that if you wanted a museum, no matter what kind of museum, you would try to attract the home schoolers and their parents.
As for why we can't see evolution today? I personally don't need tangible evidence for it to be true, if that were the case then I could believe any creation theory because according to science nothing has been proven. The method by which something goes from theory to fact is though the Scientific Method, which consists of observe, hypothesis, test, analyze, Communicate your results. Any theory of creation has yet to go from hypothesis to test, at are current technological level we simply cannot test any creation theory and so we are stuck in the observation and hypothesis phases.
And lastly for your morals, I am very happy that your intrinsic values are expressed in a socially acceptable way, and I also have never actually heard an Christian say that atheists are bad people (although I wouldn't write off your experience and am sure base on what I have heard that you have faced prejudices in this way). In fact any discussion about atheist ethics to me is purely philosophical and scholastic. The problem as I see atheist ethics is that it is intrinsic which that it is based on your motives to do good as you see fit, and the problem with that is it means that there is no absolute value that would be overarching for all people. That means that anyone can do what they please and no one could hold them accountable for anything that they do, even the phrase socially acceptable becomes nullified because there no perimeters to base acceptable on. Now I say that this is a philosophical venture because I haven't met any atheist that is morally reprehensible, granted I am still young and I haven't met a lot of atheists but somehow I don't think that I am going to meet this unethical person. it is just that the moral system that atheists have built has no all-encompassing foundation that is necessary for any ethical standard to be built on.
Also thank you for the well wishes, I really do appreciate it. I don't know if this is worth anything to you but if it is know that I am praying for you and your family.
Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree PJ. Best of luck with your fuuture endeavors and your blogging!
Thanks for the chat. :)
Patrick said, "not going to make the argument that because you are thinking about God it would naturally follow that He exists"
Phew, good! Because then I won't have to make the argument that just because I can think about invisible pink flying unicorns that it doesn't naturally follow that they exist.
Why is the idea so pervasive? Well this meme takes advantage of peoples ego's, attachment to comfort, fear of death, filling in their unknowns (god did it), etc...
It's the easy answer for hard questions. And people like their push buttons these days.
Hi there Travis
Your comment confuses me slightly, mostly because the quote that you are referencing wasn't written as clearly as I could have made it. My post originally said
"Now I am not going to make the argument that because you are thinking about God it would naturally follow that He exists, but I do have to wonder why is it that this idea is so pervasive in your culture today?"
What I meant by this statement was to make it clear that in the whole of the post my intent wasn't to make the argument that God exist because I think about Him, and also that I don't understand why, in a culture (Post-modernism) that is inherently more religious then the past one (Modernism), there seem to be more people trying to disprove the existence of God. So your comment would either mean that you think that reason from this is because of peoples ego's, comfort, fear of death, etc. The other thing that your comment could mean is that it is because of those reasons that people would use the argument that because I think about God it would follow that He exists. So if you wouldn't mind clearing that up, assuming that you subscribed to the comment feed.
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